Tuesday, May 08, 2007

Sovereignty? They don't need any stinkin' sovereignty!

Denis Coderre, official neo-colonialist of the Liberal Party of Canada:

And later, outside the Commons, Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre said he believed that all people captured by NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan - and even those captured by the Afghans themselves - should be protected in the same way as those the Canadians take into custody.


Do they not make a muzzle in that man's size?

Look, you want to protect Canadian troops by ensuring the Afghans treat Canadian-captured detainees well enough to pass some contrived threshold in a legal text? Fine. While I don't believe prison conditions should top the reconstruction priority list as some do, at some point they will have to be addressed along with the other serious weaknesses in the Afghan justice system. There's just so much to work on in Afghanistan that it's a tomayto-tomahto situation for me.

But hey - improve prison standards if that's what knots your knickers. (Me? I'm more about potable drinking water, basic medical care, literacy and practical education, and alleviating poverty by growing the economy. Call me a hard-hearted bastard if you will.)

The minute you start poking your finger into an Afghan chest and saying "We require you to run your country the way we tell you to," however, you've stopped being a valued and welcome guest helping them regain their feet, and started on your way to becoming an unwelcome occupying force.

You want a fast and easy way to endanger our troops and undermine all the great hearts-and-minds victories they've been winning in Kandahar province? Dictating to the Afghan government how they should conduct their internal affairs on their own soil will do it.

Stephane Dion needs to pull back on this idiot's leash, and hard.

Update: Chris Selley, writing from the bunker at Macleans, buttresses my point in his critique of the latest Jim Travers rabbit-hole vacation column:

We're not quite sure why the Afghan government would or should accept "Western judicial values" - and we note that this unlikely-to-be-met test and the consequences of failure Travers outlines would lead rather conveniently to an outright withdrawal of Canadian troops.


Those goalposts keep moving further and further back.

One wonders just how quickly these critics who demand instant perfection in the Afghan mission would respond if the government suddenly applied the same standard to, say, climate change: "Incremental progress is out the window! Only absolutely flawless fixes will be acceptable! And if we can't achieve perfection instantly, we'll pull out of the effort entirely - take our ball and go home!"

Time for Travers and Coderre to hammer out the finer points of their plan over a nice, hot cup of SHUT THE HELL UP.

Upperdate: In fact, Michael Byers - who still isn't being identified as the partisan NDP operative that he is - finally comes right out and says it: the greater picture of rebuilding Afghanistan bit by painful bit doesn't matter in the slightest to him and his adherents. All that matters is their one pet issue, and the leverage it can gain them:

University of British Columbia law professor Michael Byers, who made headlines with his suggestion that post-transer abuse could leave Canadian officials guilty of war crimes, takes a different point of view. He contends that Canada has "very strong leverage" with the Karzai government.

"The government of Afghanistan desperately wants Canadian troops to remain in Kandahar province," Byers tells Macleans.ca - noting that it was reportedly the Afghani government that approached Canada with the intention of improving the agreement.

"We are in an extremely strong position, vis-a-vis Afghanistan, on this issue," he says. "After all, we have the ultimate potential sanction, which is to withdraw from the mission completely. I think the Afghan government realizes now just how important this issue is to Canadians, and therefore to the continuation of the Canadian role in their country." [Babbler's highlight]


The ultimatum they would deliver to the Afghans couldn't be clearer: we're fully prepared to abandon you if you don't do exactly as we tell you, and do it now.

Welcome to the more moderate segment of the Canadian anti-war movement.

Laughing-it-update: Aaron Wherry made me laugh this morning, with this fine passage:

"In a recent national poll, I obtained twice the level of support of the leader of the opposition," O'Connor proclaimed to hearty applause from the government benches. "The reason that I obtained that support is because he continues to show poor judgment. Recently he suggested that we would bring the Taliban back to Canada, maybe on a Taliban sponsorship program. But of course his worst example of judgment is picking a buffoon as the defence critic."

Responded the Buffoon from Bourassa, Denis Coderre: "Maybe Mr. Speaker, it takes one to recognize another one."

And so, finally, we had reached consensus. After weeks of debate over a fundamental question of human rights and modern warfare, all sides were agreed: Denis Coderre is a first-rate goof. Somewhere, Shane Doan's lawyer smiled.

13 Comments:

Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

But I thought "occupying" Afstan was a Dad Thing.

Mark
Ottawa

3:27 p.m., May 08, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

Oops: "Bad Thing".

Mark
Ottawa

8:47 a.m., May 09, 2007  
Blogger John said...

In my opinion "Dances with Hezbolla" Coderre should be watched very closely. I would not be surprised if he is shilling for the extremists.

9:11 p.m., May 09, 2007  
Blogger The Phantom said...

Damian, the thing about the Liberals is that they think the Canadian Forces are supposed to be for photo-ops, not combat ops. Martin sent the Forces to Afghanistan strictly for optics, not because anybody gave a crap about the Afghans. All fighting and dying (and spending!) is to be done by Americans. This is the Liberal Way.

Now that the Conservatives are running the show, terrible things have happened. I mean, we've got Canadian soldiers out there kicking serious Taliban ass. Worse, the Crazy Con's bought them new combat stuff to kick ass with. Harper even bought them new uniforms! The Conservatives are looking good.

Therefore we must pull out immediately, because Conservatives cannot be allowed to look good. Anything Liberals can do to make that happen is A-Ok.

What about Afghanistan? Well, what about it? We all know the world ends in Scarborough on the East and Oakville on the West.

9:44 a.m., May 10, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

More from Terry Glavin:

"With friends like these ...
Self-proclaimed leaders of Canada's anti-war movement do themselves, and the cause of peace, a disservice by associating with terrorists"
http://tinyurl.com/27qxpx

"Why The Left In Canada Gets Afghanistan Wrong"
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-left-in-canada-gets-afghanistan.html

As for The Thug:

"Denis Coderre Admits It — He’s A Buffoon"
http://phantomobserver.com/blog/?p=624

Mark
Ottawa

3:30 p.m., May 10, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

Oops again--missed the "Laughing-it-update".

Mark
Ottawa

3:33 p.m., May 10, 2007  
Blogger Gilles said...

I read here that you seem to think we should respect the wishes of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan. Well here is a press report from May 10 2007:
" KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Lawmakers angered by mounting civilian deaths have sent a sharp warning to U.S. and NATO commanders, passing a motion for a military cease-fire and negotiations with the Taliban. The resolution, which NATO labelled “a warning shot'' across its own bow, came as reports emerged Wednesday of 21 villagers killed in airstrikes - a toll that a Taliban spokesman said the militia would avenge. The proposal from the upper house of parliament, which also calls for a date to be set for the withdrawal of foreign troops, suggests that Afghan support for the 5-year international military mission is crumbling amid a series of civilian deaths."

Are we going to respect this or are we going to have Karzai dissolve the Afghan Parliament for uttering such blasphemy?

Like the United States and Israel before us, we seem unable to understand how we can possibly lose a war despite overwhelming military superiority and despite winning every firefight and battle we engage in.

Yet it is simple: the reason we are losing is because we are loosing the support of the people and don't have world public oppinion behind us. When we call in airtrikes on homes, farms and villages from which we take fire and murder all the Afghan civilians living in those homes along with the insurgents, we show to the Afghans that we value the life of our soldiers more than the life of the Afghan civilians we claim to be there to help and protect. They are not stupid. We are acting like a bunch of racists in a way we would never dare to act in a “white” country area. The only way we would ever win the war in Afghanistan, is to carry it out as though those insurgents were taking shelter in the homes of a Canadian village, a village populated by white Canadian Christian women and children, your wives, mothers, sisters and children. Instead, we consider them like savages that can be slaughtered at will, like in the days of the colonial wars in India and Africa. And then we blame the deaths on the Taliban that we accuse of sheltering behind civilians. We act just like the Israelis (that 99% of the world can't stand)

I am certain that most of the writers and readers of this Blog do not think that saving the life of even dozen little girls in Afghanistan is worth the sacrifice of one Canadian soldier’s life. That is why we should pack up and leave.

1:15 p.m., May 12, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

taxpayer: I assume you are aware that Canadian CF-18s undoubtedly killed white, Christian Serb civilians when bombing Kosovo and Serbia in 1999?

As for world public opinion, why has the UN Security Council several times unamimously authorized the ISAF mission? And what about those Muslim Turks now commanding ISAF's Regional Command Kabul?
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=17571

Hell, even the US Democrats are gung-ho for the Afstan mission..

And what about the north, west and centre of the country, plus Kabul, which are overwhelmingly peaceful?

I suggest you read Terry Glavin:

"Why The Left In Canada Gets Afghanistan Wrong"
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-left-in-canada-gets-afghanistan.html

"Another Take On The Alibi Room Af'stan Debate"
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/05/another-take-on-alibi-room-afstan.html

"Canada and Afghanistan: The Vancouver Debate"
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/04/canada-and-afghanistan-tyee-panel.html

Mark
Ottawa

1:36 p.m., May 12, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

taxpayer: I suggest you also read this; you seem to have a lot in common with Mr van Gurp:

'"Reassess Strategy"
Letter in hometown newspaper prompts reply from Kandahar'
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_lang-scott/20070408.html

Mark
Ottawa

1:55 p.m., May 12, 2007  
Blogger Gilles said...

I am aware about the CF-18s in Kosovo. And I didn't agree to it. We sacrificed thousands of civilians to preserve our ground troops, and limit the number of people we needed tpo engage on the ground. It has become a shameful norm.
I am not against the Afghan mission in principle. I am againts the WAY it was conducted, on the CHEAP because the ressources that would have been required we invested by the US in IRAQ, leaving peanuts for Afghanistan, causing our soon to come defeat there. There is no UN mandate to bomb civilians by the way.
The Turks? They are there because in exchange, the US arms them and turns a blind eye to what they do against the PKK, which has involved bombing Kurdish villages with F-16s, sometimes in their own country, and inside Iraq's Kurdistan as well. There are UN reports about it.
I never said US democrats were a reference. Clinton bombed Sudan, just to cover up his sex life problems.
About the peaceful areas of Afghanistan: the day I can see a couple of canadian soldiers stroll down the streets of an Afghan town, by themselves, with just sidearms, sit down in a cafe and have coffee, I will believe it. US soldiers could do it in downtown Saigon in the middle of the Vietnam war.
I will read those references. Our troops cannot do it 100 meters outside the Kandahar base.

I will read those references

5:39 p.m., May 12, 2007  
Blogger Mark, Ottawa said...

taxpayer: Perhaps you missed the last part of this post:

"Afstan: UK sees forces there beyond 2009/Civilian casualties"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/afstan-uk-sees-forces-there-beyond-2009.html

You also write: "I am aware about the CF-18s in Kosovo. And I didn't agree to it. We sacrificed thousands of civilians to preserve our ground troops, and limit the number of people we needed tpo engage on the ground."

Canadian ground troops did not arrive in significant numbers until the air campaign (whether right or wrong) had forced the Serbs to accept withdrawal from Kosovo.
http://www.cds.dnd.ca/pubs/anrpt/intnl_e.asp

You have much attitude, little knowledge. Once again I recommend you read Mr Glavin closely.

Mark
Ottawa

7:33 p.m., May 12, 2007  
Blogger Gilles said...

Ok I read all of it. Leftists, Communists, Liberals, NDP, etc. Unrelated to my comments, exept that they are anti-war, like me.

1)Kosovo: NATO (including Canada) allegedly began this Air Campaign to stop Serbian atrocities against ethnic Albanian in Kosovo. In reality, NATO just wanted to teach the ex-Eastern Bloc Serbs a lesson for standing up to them. Before the bombing began, most of the Serb atrocities against ethnic Albanians had been limited retaliation for deadly attacks against the Serbian Army by the Kosovo liberation army. The KLA had until then been responsible for much more Serb deaths than the otehr way around. Less than 2000 people had been killed on both sides before the NATO bombing began. The start of the NATO bombing is what unleashed the Serbian furor. Yet NATO, hiding behind its Air Superiority, which allowed it to inflict massive casualties to the Serbs while suffering close to none, did not send troops on the ground which would have been the only effective way to save the people we were claiming to be there to save. Of the 15,000 or so people who died in Kosovo, most (±13,000) were killed AFTER the NATO Air campaign began. But they were not worth risking NATO ground troops, which we sent only after the Serbs had been bombed into submission and withdrawn, for we would have sustained major casualties. Yes, we were bombing Christians, but they had been armed by the Eastern bloc and this was NATO’s first and last chance at demonstrating to the World its technical and military superiority and firepower over eastern bloc weaponry. But the people we were claiming to be saving, who were getting slaughtered by the thousands while our ground troops who could have saved them, remained safely at home, were in fact, Muslims. They were not worth loosing troops over. They were just an excuse for live military excercises, and selling smart bombs. During the 78-day NATO campaign, we bombed bridges, power stations, factories, broadcasting stations, post offices, prisons, refugee convoys and various government buildings. Human Rights Watch attributes at least 500 civilian deaths to the NATO bombing. Read this: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword2b.html. Such an Air Campaign, in strict military terms, makes sense when two armies are fighting. However, when the targets are not clearly and strictly military, such as what went on and what still goes on in many cases in Serbia, in Kosovo, in Iraq, in Libya, in Lebanon, in Palestine, in Afghanistan, it is never justified.
2) I did note, in your previous post, that you claimed that the bombing of Afghan civilians was bad news. But in case you haven’t noticed, this happens all the time, it is a rare and isolated incident. It is not bad new but a catastrophe on which the whole outcome of the war will depend. There is such bad news every week. Sometimes several in the same week. Look at this BBC link where I input “Afghan civilian deaths”: http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=all&edition=i&q=afghan+civilian+death&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=go and keep in mind that most of these incidents are not reported by the BBC. Do the same on the Human Rights Watch website, and you come up with 486 hits: http://search.hrw.org/search?q=afghan+civilian+death&btnG=Search&sort=date_3AD_3AL_3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&GO.x=20&client=hrw_frontend&num=10&GO.y=13&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=hrw_frontend&site=default_collection.
3) I forgot to mention the main reasons the Turks are in Afghanistan: they are playing catch up for their refusal to let the Americans attack Iraq from Turkey in 2003. On May 6 2003, Paul Wolfowitz appeared on a CNN-Turk interview which caused outrage in Turkey. He said that in order to help repair US-Turk relations, the Turkish government should admit they made a mistake (which has been interpreted by Turks as apologize). Secondly, Wolfowitz stated that the Turkish military did not show the “leadership” it should have (by not forcing the Turkish government to ignore the wishes of the 90% of the Turkish population and let the Americans use Turkey as an attack point. In other words, he blamed the Turks for being democratic). Since then there has been many “debates over what Turkey may have "lost" due to the rejection of the motion include: a loss of U.S. confidence and a special bond with the U.S.; a chance to secure a strategic bridgehead in Kurdish northern Iraq and the opportunity for a Turkish military role in Iraq; no inclusion of Turkey in the post-war stabilization & security force; a decrease of regional influence due to a lost seat at the table; less Turkish access to U.S. officials; the unclear status of Turkmens in northern Iraq; Kurds seen as the new loyal ally of the U.S.; less U.S. support for Turkey's EU membership; decreased importance of Incirlik base; doubts raised about the U.S.-Turkish "strategic" partnership; a possible decrease of pro-Turkish U.S. influence at the IMF; loss of a huge economic package; loss of millions of dollars to upgrade ports and bases; damage to Turkey's image in the U.S.; less priority given to Turkish companies in post-war reconstruction contracts; a setback for the establishment of a Qualified Industrial Zone; decreased ability to counter the powerful anti-Turkey lobbies and Armenian genocide claims; potential problems with U.S. military purchases and contracts; potential problems with the Jewish lobby and military relations with Israel; and U.S. pressure to resolve the Cyprus and Aegean problems, making them more difficult to resolve.”

Turkey was mauled by the Americans for standing up to them in 2003 and is in Afghanistan to try to win all this back, not because they approve of what is going on. I doubt you will see Turks drop a single bomb por shell on any village in Afghanistan.
Real politics.

War is bad, is horrible, is ugly, is dirty, is wrong and should only used as last resort when there is no other solution or in most exteme cases. Bombing innocent civilians, women and children is even worse and should never be justified, never. You guys keep trying to make believe that our troops are on some kind of just “crusade”, and that the killing our troops do is just because we only kill and harm bad people to save the widows and orphans. The reality is that we are also killing the widows and orphans.
I remember as a kid, watching a World War Two movie, I forget which, maybe the Battle of the Bulge. A German commando was dressed with US uniforms to carry out a special mission. Then a little French girl fell into a canal and was about to be crushed by the turning wheel of a water mill. The German jumped into the water, saved the girl, and was killed by the wheel, which revealed his German uniform underneath his US uniform, thus revealing the identity of his comrades to the local population and jeopardising the whole mission. Yet, he had instinctively jumped in the water, because in the man’s mind, at that moment, nothing was more important to him than the little girl’s life. He gave is life to save the girl's.
What monsters have we become? We bomb little girls’ homes because we fear being shot at. So we hide behind a wall, and call in Apaches and A-10s to level the home.
We should not be accusing the insurgents we bomb of causing the death of the people around them. We always have the choice not to bomb, we can chose what we bomb and when to bomb in order to avoid civilian casualties. Those who refuse to understand this simple point are going to be responsible for our failure in Afghanistan; because there is no doubt that we will fail unless we change technique and mostly our racist attitude. We are no longer seen as the good guys by the Afghan civilians, no matter how much we want to fool ourselves.
We could be the good guys though. But first, we have to begin to act like the good guys, and not just pretend like we are.

12:56 p.m., May 13, 2007  
Blogger Babbling Brooks said...

Mark, don't even bother with this "taxpayer." As you said, much attitude, little knowledge. When you wrestle with pigs, etc.

10:35 a.m., May 14, 2007  

Post a Comment

<< Home