Wednesday, May 31, 2006

They're not POW's

It seems some folks have gotten their knickers in a knot over the CF position that captured Taliban fighters aren't POW's (ht:ST).

I'm no legal beagle, but Article 4 of the Geneva Convention seems pretty clear to me. This is the relevant passage:

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
...
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


The Taliban insurgents might meet the first condition, but they certainly don't meet the rest. They don't qualify for POW status.

Which is not to say that they shouldn't receive humane treatment from the forces capturing them, as LGen Michel Gauthier clearly affirms:

“They are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status but they are entitled to prisoner-of-war treatment,” he said, asserting that all detainees are humanely treated.


Our treatment of prisoners - especially the agreement that sees them handed over to the Afghan government - might be in contravention of treaties to which we are signatories, but the Geneva Convention is not one of them.

18 Comments:

Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

I think you missed what is knicker knotting, it's not the fact that they are being treated not as POW, its that the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped.

11:15 a.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger deaner said...

"the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped."

Cameron - what would make you think that the Canadian Forces have not performed the same analysis, and having performed it, come to the same conclusion?

11:30 a.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

deaner, because the article says/implies that and, lacking the ability to astrally project, I am forced to deal with the article that babbling brooks was commenting on.

If you were to, say , provide something else in the way of information I would re-assess my comment about the article.

Please note the important bit of that last paragraph (you may have to remove your special "read things into the comments of lefties" glasses you usually use to read my comments to do this), which is : "my comment about the article". Because I never made a comment about the policy, the status of the POWs or any other thing that was beyond the scope of the article.

11:41 a.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger Babbling Brooks said...

Cameron, with respect, I think you're the one who missed the point of the article. The law professor quoted may be concerned primarily with process, but Koring is clearly focusing on the policy itself and muddling our commitments to human rights issues with pure concerns about the Geneva Conventions.

2:38 p.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger deaner said...

Cameron - I didn't think I needed astral projection to understand that the CF had actually come to a reasoned conclusion, as opposed to simply deciding willy-nilly that taliban irregulars were not POWs under the Geneva Convention.

I assumed that when Lieutenant-General Michel Gauthier said "Our intention certainly isn't to leave junior folks hanging out to dry at all on this. We are on firm legal ground we have no worries about the possibility of prosecution or allegations of criminal wrongdoing for having transferred detainees." (my emphasis) he wasn't just talking out of his ass, but was instead summarizing actual, you know, legal advice. From lawyers. To me, that implied a "process" of making the determination - YMMV, I guess.

3:54 p.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

babbling, with utmost respect, we'll have to differ then eh?

5:05 p.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

Deaner, again, you are assuming.

I'm trying not to.

And if you read what I've written you'll discover that I haven't either.

5:06 p.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger deaner said...

Cameron - I don't believe you - you are making an assumption, no matter how much you claim not to be doing so.

You have concluded that "the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped." I think the only way you can get there is either to assume that the legal advice referred to by Lt-Gen Gauthier did not address the question of whether the captured Taliban fighters were considered to be Convention POWs, to assume that he is just making it up and the question had never been considered within the Forces, or to ignore his comment altogether. Please let me know if there is another way to reach that conclusion - I would hate to read anything into your comments. I make a different assumption, that the issue has been considered and the legal position addresses it. That's fair; we each have to decide which assumption is more plausible, but it is (IMHO) incorrect to assert that you are not assuming anything.

"...because the article says/implies that [the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped]."
I don't see it - what provides that implication?

5:41 p.m., May 31, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

"The decision to ignore the regulations without a legal test of whether detainees in Afghanistan are entitled to PoW status puts Canada “in a very odd situation. It's completely irregular,” Prof. Attaran says.

He believes the government's position that Geneva doesn't apply may be correct but it needs to be tested in court."

"Gen. Gauthier concedes that the change in policy could open the door to criminal charges being laid against Taliban fighters."

"But Canada, following the Bush administration's lead in the United States, had decreed that there are no lawful combatants among the enemy in the current conflict and no screening was required."

11:37 a.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

emphasis most assuredly mine.

11:37 a.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

Imagine if I had said that I thought that laws had been broken. Imagine for a second that I was commenting on anything beyond what this article says. Imagine all those things, and then mb, just mb, some of you lot could take your antagonistic attitudes and stuff them up your butt.

And then we could have a discussion.

And I'd love to see these documents.

12:21 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Babbling Brooks said...

"...its that the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped."

Cameron, I think the central argument here is that you're taking Koring's word on this. Deaner and I think it's more likely to be spin by a reporter who has issues with the policy - or who at least thinks he's got a story he can sensationalize.

The CF doesn't make decisions about the legal status of prisoners off the cuff. Just because you, Koring, and a GeeGee law prof don't know what that process was doesn't mean there wasn't one.

And you might want to drop the chip on your shoulder. We're not disagreeing with you because you're a lefty - I had no idea until you brought it up, and besides, we have lefties contributing to the blog here - we're disagreeing because we think your position is questionable.

12:45 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

I didn't make an assumption. I based my entire comment on the article that was posted. Period. I honestly don't have a position. I have questions. None of which have been answered by this article or anything you or anyone else has said.

"Don't worry, the CF is doing the right thing" leaves me a bit cold. Sorry.

And the leftie comment was for Deaner, who seems to have a particular bee in his bonnet with me of late (on several blogs no less).

Apart from the "the left are all cowards" comment middle of last month I have felt nothing but welcome here. So, no chip.

Thanks for caring though.

12:58 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger deaner said...

"...and then mb, just mb, some of you lot could take your antagonistic attitudes and stuff them up your butt."

Right - "lacking the ability to astrally project..." is just a demonstration of coversational goodwill. The insistence that you 'are not assuming anything' while others are is not being antagonistic - that's just the way it works when you understand things and others don't, right?

You will note that the good professor is not claiming that no legal analysis has been done, or that there has been no process to determine whether the detainees are in fact Convention POWs (and he says that assessment may be correct) - he only says that it hasn't been "tested" in court. That doesn't sound to me like "the process to decide that they are not POWs has been skipped."

"I honestly don't have a position. I have questions."
Yeah? Find the question: it's not the fact that they are being treated not as POW, its that the process to decided that they are not POWs has been skipped." More like a conclusion or an assertion. That's fine - I am interested in your thoughts; but don't be truculent when asked how you got there, and then pout about how everyone is antagonistic.

1:47 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

Deaner, what exactly is your problem with me?

1:51 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

"lacking the ability to astrally project..." was a light hearted way to suggest that I wasn't discussing anything past the confines of this article and that I didn't know more than what was said in it.

Over there in the glass house of "pout" mb you might want to put down your rocks Deaner.

2:37 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger deaner said...

"...was a light hearted way to suggest that I wasn't discussing anything past the confines of this article..."

If so Cameron, then I apologize for taking it the wrong way - which seems to have gotten us off on the wrong foot. I have no problem with you, Cameron - which may "be" the problem; I can usually understand what you say and follow your arguments, even if I disagree. In this case, what I followed you saying was not what you intended to mean. I hope that puts it behind us.

D

4:40 p.m., June 01, 2006  
Blogger Cameron Campbell said...

Deaner, fair enough.

10:40 p.m., June 01, 2006  

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